August 4, 2009

Key points from #broman

Nice to see you again. Follow me, @SydneyOwen. Thanks for being here!

“The only way to silence the voice of self doubt is to cross the starting line” – Peter Shankman

 

In a conference call today with Chris Brogan and Peter Shankman, I was asked to take notes. My favorite way to take notes at something like this, especially something with a hashtag, is to live-tweet. So that’s what I did. 

I’m also thrilled to announce that my question was the first one addressed. I asked about teaching the tools vs. using the tools for clients, because it seems like Peter and Chris do a lot of teaching. They talk a lot of strategy, and let the clients run with it. 

Over the course of the hour, I picked up 39 things that I thought were worth sharing with my audience. In the end, there were eight points that stuck out to me for one reason or another.

  1. Top 3 things to know about SM for a new client: how many vs how good, listening, share! This is so important. It’s not about how many tools you’re using, but how well you’re using those tools. If you’re only halfway engaging on 8 different platforms, you’re not reaching nearly as many as you could if you engaged very well on two or three. And of course, make sure you listen to the conversations, and contribute to those that are happening around you.
  2. Let your clients [customers] evangelize and do your PR for you. I think this is where Peter was talking about how he can walk into a bar, talk to some girl, and not have a chance. But if her friend tells her how awesome he is, she’s definitely going home with him. Think about that. It makes sense if you apply that to a customer experience with a brand. For example, if you’re looking for a hair stylist, and someone recommends one, you’re likely to go to that person instead of just wandering into some salon.
  3. ROAR: Responsibilities, opportunities, awareness, results. So Peter nailed it right on the head with this acronym. There is a lot of chatter when it comes to how to use social media in business, but really, it all boils down to ROAR. 
  4. You have to switch from where do I advertise to where do I listen? It’s not about where you blast your message. One-to-many communication is now many-to-many. It’s not about you and your megaphone and you not listening. It’s about everyone having a dialogue, more than one interaction, and some meaningful conversation.
  5. To move at the speed at trust will generate revenue, if not today, the no doubt sometimes down the road. Peter is on to something. The ROI for social media may be slow at first, but it will, when used correctly, generate revenue for your business. If you’re starting from nothing in the space, you can’t expect results overnight. Give it some time. Nurture it. Participate. You’ll see your results. 
  6. How do you grow your followers? Be helpful. Answer the question “what has your attention?”, not “what are you doing?”. Because the first question will have a much more interesting answer. This is where Peter tells the story about his friend who was having a yogurt. He got onto her about it because her first tweet was about yogurt. Turns out that yogurt was from Pink Berry, and they just opened a new store, and were giving away yogurt. “That’s what you should have tweeted!” Peter exclaims. Add value.
  7. It’s not about the number of followers, it’s about the interaction. Don’t @ reply if your audience won’t care. That’s how Chris and Peter both operate. If they @ reply everyone that engages them, the rest of us would be flooded with boring responses. So Chris and Peter both opt to DM people, unless an @ reply would bring value to the conversation for anyone that may happen to see it. A good example, Tyler Hurst and Chris Brogan‘s interaction on Twitter today about ESPN. Could have been through DM’s, but they fed off each other to bring light to a hot topic.
  8. If you survive screwing up royally, write about it and share those lessons you learned. Stay tuned, because I’m sure to screw up on something, and if I live to tell about it, you bet your buns I’ll write about it. 

“Do not go where the road may lead, but go where there is no road and leave a trail.” -another solid one from Chris Brogan (really Ralph Waldo Emerson but Chris delivered it so succinctly).

My biggest takeaway, you ask? Basically, the most important thing I learned is that for the most authentic and best consumer experience possible for our clients and their customers, we should teach them how to use the tools and services available. Doing the tweeting, blogging, social media stuff for our clients is okay at first, but the goal should be to transition them into doing it themselves.

So check out what other people were saying here. 

What do you think about teaching the tools vs. doing them for your clients? What if your client wants you to do everything for them? What are your top three things you suggest to people/businesses/clients that are just getting started with social media?

  • I think we can all agree that social media requires strategic planning in the same way that a traditional campaign does. We have all seen great social media successes and failures. We can't be tweeting and facebooking and expect that it will achieve our objectives or that we won't be the victim of consumer backlash.

    I believe we can also agree that many of the principles of social media existed as principles of public relations. Consumer evangelism, for example, is not something that only occurs through media--whether traditional, new, or social. Ben & Jerry's has had evangelists since the beginning who spread the word without using media. Personally, I never hesitate to tell people I LUV SWA, and that's not something I've ever written in a blog post (until now). Additionally, listening to consumers is something we have done for a long time, but now we have more places to listen and more people broadcasting their opinions.

    For students, a foundation of strategic planning is essential and the core courses in most PR programs emphasize these fundamentals while exposing students to social media. If a student isn't learning these fundamentals, then it is probably the fault of the student. It's the student's responsibility--and Sydney is a good example--to apply what he or she has learned and learn as much as possible. A major is not necessarily going to teach you everything you need to know to work in your chosen career. Hey, I majored in math so I know this first-hand. But the experience did help me refine my critical thinking skills and that has definitely been useful. PR students should also be double-majoring or minoring is an area that could give them more perspective, such as political science or history. I would guess that many of the top execs at PR firms did not major in PR.

    I would like to caution students of being critical in such a public manner of the very people who can help them in the early stages of their careers.

    Sydney, I'd love to know more about why you conducted this interview and where I can find a copy of it.
    .-= Kelli Burns´s last blog ..International Study of PR Practitioners Demonstrates the Importance of Evaluation Research =-.
  • I initially read this thread when it began to progress between Batchelor and Peter. I personally think this type of discussion is one that should happen in the classroom. It is the perfect opportunity to bring critical thinking, sm, and public relations all into the same room while still learning and bouncing thoughts of off teacher/ student relationship.

    I myself am new to the PR world, and I am now very well aware that Public Relations isn't the "Peoples Revolution" that they aired on The Hills.

    Unfortunately, like myself, too many people believe that PR isn't as strategic as it can really be. Most people I come into conversations with believe that PR Professionals are glorified "b/s-ers" or people that tell you want to hear. Thankfully the collide of social media in the form of blogs, fb, twitter, etc has helped merged those ideas into, unfortunately, a quick crash course idea of what PR should somewhat be like.

    Keep it going! I loved reading this. Sydney, great post! Dr. Batchelor, I'll be in your class in the fall, please bring this discussion or SM up in discussion!
    .-= Patrick´s last blog ..PR Fashion Jobs =-.
  • Walter Bernuy
    Thanks Sydney for response. I agree with you, students need to learn the fundamentals first before anything, but the point is students aren't really learning the fundamentals as Prof Batchelor so correctly pointed out.

    I myself went into the program with little knowledge of communications. Maybe it is my own fault for not learning as much as I could but I feel like some programs are lacking in making the practical connection. I know Prof Batchelor has had a great career, I am myself have told him that, but when I took his class the connection was lacking.

    I have one year left at USF, I hope the rest of my classes are more challenging and more difficult than what I've taken so far.
  • @Walter - I think Batchelor covered it in his most recent comment - but he's exactly right. Most of us come into the PR program with no idea what PR is. (I didn't know when I signed up, I thought I knew, but I had no idea)

    The point of the PR program at USF (and that of any PR program that is worth a damn anywhere) is to teach us about the principles of PR - the basic knowledge that we're expected to know and put into practice when we jump into the real world. Which, is another post all by itself. Yes, social media is becoming increasingly important, but if you don't know how to do PR, then your use of social media in PR will be irrelevant. You have to know the basics. It's not optional. I'm an intern at a huge agency, and though they do turn to me for a lot of social media questions, I am expected to know the basics first. So learn the basics. And master them.

    I'm glad you're jumping into social media and are passionate about it, but we're all learning here, we're all new, and people like you and I especially still have a TON to learn about this industry. I wouldn't go burning bridges with Batchelor (which you could be doing, based on your comment above), because he has a great career behind him in the PR world, and can help you get very far if he believes in you.

    ::stepping off soap box::

    Regardless, thank you for being here and contributing to the conversation.
  • This is an interesting discussion. Thanks again to Sydney for sparking it via her roundup of the call with Peter and Chris. I'm also glad Peter jumped into the mix.

    There are many case studies of successful sm campaigns and projects. Whenever one raises doubts about sm, these same companies and campaigns are trooped out to show how powerful sm is, such as Southwest. So, one would have to be short-sighted to question the usefulness of sm across the board. However, at the other end of the spectrum, there is a tsunami of sm "experts" that have concluded sm is a game-changer or going to completely transform PR/communications as they have been conducted for the last 125 years.

    My call is simply for some sanity among the Kool-Aid sippers, particularly for students and young professionals. Without the requisite fundamental skills and strong analytical/critical thinking skills, all the fancy sm in the world won't add up to a hill of beans.

    Take a look, for example, at the basic writing skills of many students and young pros on blogs, etc. Often one sees these posts riddled with grammatical errors and weak, passive voice. Don't they realize that potential employers will read this as they vet their applications? Many communications executives told me horror stories of potential employees who looked great on a resume, but had electronic baggage filled with horrible writing.

    The challenge as a teacher is finding a middle ground between students that actually do not know much about PR and have weak basic skills and those who simply think they know everything. Unless a student is taking a class solely focusing on sm, then there is no way to fit in all the potential material. Unfortunately, most college students enter PR programs with almost no understanding of the field or its challenges. Thus, faculty members spend too much time filling in gaps that students won't fill on their own. And, regrettably, some students enter the program thinking they already know everything there is to learn when they actually know next to nothing and aren't willing to work hard to get a handle on the field.

    I apologize for floating a little far from the heart of the original discussion. However, I see an important link between foundational skills (writing, strategic thinking, diplomacy, teamwork, ethical world view, etc.) and sm.

    Sydney is a great example of a USF PR alum who built the former while learning the latter.
    .-= Bob Batchelor´s last blog ..Unrealistic Millennial “Expectations” in the Workplace =-.
  • Betsy Soler
    I couldn't sit in for that. Thanks for the insight. I like the part about ROAR. I'm always saying Roar!

    This is one of your best blog posts yet.... :)
  • You know I’ve been reading this thread as it has progressed all day. I wasnt going to comment, mainly because I’m fairly new to the new media realm. But there was a few things I must agree with and some things I must comment on.

    I totally agree that sm is about story-telling as was said in the comments and as Gary Vaynerchuk has always brought up. It is all about engaging your audience in a new more efficient way.

    It will not replace traditional media, mainly because traditional media takes less effort. I’m sure Peter will agree with me since he’s talked about how much he actually works when people tell him to “Do some work”.

    With regards to Prof. Batchelor, I do hope you have changed some of the ways you teach your class, because when I took your class you mentoined sm as being important (once i think) but never brought WHY or HOW it was important. In regards to communications overall. I have learned more from Peter Shankman, Chris Brogan, Gary Vaynerchuk, Pete Cashmore, Guy Kawasaki then I had all last year in my classes.

    About the 20-something comments, this is a common belief. I've met lots of business owners this summer who think that sm is full off "young kids", so they think that it wouldn't be the right medium for them. A few facts that they are surprised about are Peter's mention of 50+ on facebook and the fact that the largest age group and twitter is 35-49.

    Walter B

    http://soflocomm.com
    http://twitter.com/wbernuy
    .-= Walter Bernuy´s last blog ..Contact us =-.
  • Hey, Sydney -- great recap! I was on the call and blogged my notes as well, but you touched on a number of points that I didn't jot down.

    Certainly, Peter and Chris don't need anyone to defend them -- and I think Peter's comment pretty much covered everything -- but I did want to touch on one point in the previous comment "what kind of storytelling we’re doing when it is through Tweets, links, and video." I think companies that are participating in social networks are telling very compelling stories. Not just by one tweet, or one video, but by the total online presence. For example, look at @SouthwestAir's tweets and the blog. They both do a good job conveying online the type of experience you get on their airplanes. Fun, a little quirky, but good service.

    Additionally, there are lots of apartment/condo communities using social media -- resident portals, blogs, Twitter, Flickr, YouTube, etc -- to convey what it's like to live at one of their properties. Some apartments even let residents submit maintenance requests via Twitter. How easy is that? Talk about convenience for a resident! But, that conveys an important part of the community's brand.

    Along the same lines, I work with a nonprofit organization, helping them understand how they can use social media to reach a new audience of potential volunteers, donors and supporters. In less than a year, they've racked up impressive follower numbers, but more importantly, they've established connections that have resulted in significant tangible benefits -- food and blankets being donated, additional support at fundraisers, etc.

    Social media is a set of tools that help organizations interact in new ways with consumers -- improving customer service, educating people about products, and so on.

    Thanks for sparking an interesting conversation, Sydney!

    Heather (@prtini)
    .-= Heather Whaling´s last blog ..HARO Call: Recapping Broman-isms =-.
  • Thanks Tyler, my next bday is 8/29. I wasn't on the call, but I teach communications, so I know a great deal about Shankman and Brogan. What conclusions did I jump to? I initially responded with some skepticism to Sydney's original post.

    I totally disagree with the notion that exposure to information negates critical thinking or careful planning. Furthermore, I doubt that any communicator in their right mind would agree with that idea. If so, why have communications planning or strategic communications at all? A company could simply throw a ton of information at consumers and let them make "an informed decision."

    Changing culture does not dampen the need for critical thinking. I would argue that the information overload actually requires better critical thinking skills. Cutting through the clutter/information glut is why strategic planning is necessary.

    And, critical thinking doesn't mean that one needs to take "days or weeks of consideration." To be a critical thinker, one needs an understanding of what that means and the ability to use those skills. I can't imagine that social media has changed that.
    .-= Bob Batchelor´s last blog ..Unrealistic Millennial “Expectations” in the Workplace =-.
  • This should be an awesome discussion to share with your class. I remember the study one of your classes did about Twitter and SM, and I'd be interested to see what your students think about this topic, if in fact, they aren't as connected as we think.

    I don't think the importance of critical thinking skills has diminished, but I do think that the frequency at which we use said skills is changing.
  • I'd really love to buy Bob Batchelor a Jump To Conclusions mat for his next birthday.

    Really buddy? You weren't on the call nor do you have any knowledge about Shankman or Brogan?

    Culture is changing. Not everything requires critical thinking, days or weeks of consideration or even careful planning. With as much information as we are constantly exposed to, we ALREADY HAVE most of the information we need to make an informed decision.
    .-= Tyler Hurst´s last blog ..Kabuki responds to customer tweet during Happy Hour =-.
  • Alright now Tyler, play nice.

    But good point about culture changing and everything that follows.
  • Syndey, thank you so much for summarizing the conference call yesterday, which I was unable to listen to. I would consider myself very new to social media and do consider Chris Brogan and Peter Shankman gurus, and appreciate their expertise. Guys you have no idea how much I've learned from you. I am the farthest thing from a NASA rocket scientist, but I'm probably a very good demographic for the "middle of the road" business owner, newbie to sm. I recently took a class at UCLA taught by Beverly Macy, and Karl Kasca. The best business decision i have ever made. Beverly used Chris Brogan as an example of a leader in the sm field many times in class, so I've been a fan since. Peter Shankman, cracks me up! He does a fabulous job of using social media and incorporating his humorous personality into his professional life. I feel like I know him even though we've never met. It's transparency at it's best. Peter thanks for being such a great example of it. I certainly want to thank Chris and Peter for taking the time to share your expertise and knowledge with those of us who are trying to sort it all out with respect to building brands and communities. As Beverly Macy says about sm, "you may feel like you are drinking water from a firehose" but it does start to all make sense if you stick with it. Thanks Sydney, Chris and Peter!
  • Hi Peter (and Sydney), thanks for the overview of the call. I didn't participate, so I did not hear the details. I'm sure you and Chris offered a great service and I respect that you don't charge the same high fees that PRSA (and other "professional" organizations) do.

    I'm glad that we agree on the notion of sm "gurus" who seem to be as interested in self-promotion as in building sm into its own industry. The "echo chamber" notion of sm is often overpowering. If one drinks the sm Kool-Aid, then there is a rationale for putting on blinders to all things not sm.

    I don't want to belabor the point, but simply not considering yourself an expert/guru when you offer educational teleconferences and tour around to PRSA chapter and meetings around the country as a speaker and are called "brilliant" by someone at NASA is really just a kind of non-dick way of saying that you are an expert. How you justify your role in the sm guru solar system is up to you. I don't have a big problem with it, since we all use various media channels to promote ourselves if we are in a position where we need marketing.

    One of the challenges I have with sm communications is that too often it is devoid of context, which enables people to make snap judgments, rather than critically thinking through an issue. As a result, sm contributes to the deteriorating "sound bite" culture we now live in. It doesn't matter if older people are using FB and Twitter more, it is the whiz-bang zapping of messages back and forth plays to the lowest form of critical thinking or none at all.

    Thanks again for the opportunity to have this discussion. I will use this discussion in my classes as we discuss the role of sm in today's business environment. Although I think that too many people are pushing sm as the end-all, I realize its importance for my students and their development as young professionals.
    .-= Bob Batchelor´s last blog ..Unrealistic Millennial “Expectations” in the Workplace =-.
  • Hi Sydney! And hi Bob!

    OK. Where to begin...

    Point by point...

    Spidey sense alarm go off. There was nothing "consulting speak" in our talk - the whole point, in fact, was to NOT be consultants. We talked about real-life examples, ranging from Nikon and Canon, to Westin Hotels to Southwest Airlines to the Big Gay Ice Cream Truck. Proven examples where social media or some facet thereof came in, took a problem, offered a solution, and everyone (the customer/client, the brand, and the audience of that brand as a whole) came out as winners. We weren't shooting pie-in-the-sky ideas with the hope that they'd work. Quite the contrary, the first thing we said on the call is that if you're not making money by implementing social media into your overall Marketing strategy, there's no point in doing it. At no point did we say it should take over PR, substitute for it, or anything in the like. Social Media is part of a bigger marketing strategy that also includes PR and traditional marketing. That's a no-brainer.

    letting your customers evangelize for you is as old as the hills No denying. But Dr. Batchelor, Twitter came out in 2006, and erupted in late 2008/early 2009. Prior to Twitter, there was Facebook. Prior to Facebook, (skipping a few years,) the "bitch boards" on AOL. Prior to that, dial up BBSs, and prior to that, writing letters to the editor.

    We didn't say on the call how @chrisbrogan and myself have discovered this amazing new thing called "using your customers to promote for you!" but rather, now, there are new tools that allow them to do it in a fraction of a second without thinking, without any of the hassles that evangelizing a brand used to involve. To NOT include these simple, to the point, and EASY ideas in your full-scale marketing mix (note: we never EVER used the word "REPLACE") is just short-sighted.

    for 20-something soundbites The largest growing segment on Facebook is currently 50+ moms. Doesn't sound like our advice was given for 20-somethings in the slightest.

    I got tremendous follow-up and results from a post I made regarding a bad experience at a Sheraton hotel. It was about five pages long, included photos, and included quotes both from Sheraton and Starwood. Far from a sound bite. We never at any point suggested a sound-bite culture.

    Finally - we're in agreement on one point - High-priced "guru" calls are pointless, as are people who call themselves "gurus." I have NEVER called myself a guru or an expert, and as far as I know, neither has Chris. But hundreds of other people have called us that and better, including media, as well as some of the most respected people in the the PR, marketing, and various other industries, as well. (You haven't lived until you've been called "brilliant" by an actual NASA rocket scientist. It's pretty cool.

    I like to think I offer practical, real-world advice based on real-world client interactions that have proven themselves out to be highly beneficial for the client and the brand as a whole, in the past.

    By the way: Our price? $50, for as many people as you could fit around your phone. High-priced? Far from it. That's not my style. I grew up on the streets of New York City. High-priced was using Duracell batteries in my Walkman instead of Pathmark brand.

    If you send me an email, peter - at - shankman - d0t - com - I'd be more than happy to send you an mp3 of the conference call, and would love to continue this dialogue with you, if you'd like.

    My best regards,

    -Peter Shankman
    http://shankman.com
    http://helpareporter.com
    .-= Peter Shankman´s last blog ..The Busch Gardens Loch Ness Monster Roller Coaster! =-.
  • Hi Sydney, I'm glad that you bring the point back to storytelling. Your insight is one of the reasons I enjoy your writing. I just wonder what kind of storytelling we're doing when it is through Tweets, links, and video. Sure, we're telling a story, but in some respects, dumbing it down to meet the attention spans of the common denominator.

    Society decries the fall of traditional media, but we are getting what we asked for. If most of popular culture is geared at 18-34 year old males, then something is wrong with that focus. This demographic wields power in the mind of marketers, but doesn't actually offer that much in buying power when compared to other age groups. I mean how many great movies are being shelved b/c Hollywood marketers think the country needs another lame "bro-mance?"

    And, I also agree that sm is part of the answer, not the complete answer, which seems to get lost in the excessive push to "monetize" sm.

    As for the role of "gurus" in that push, any member of PRSA, IABC, etc. can tell you that she receives dozens of these (high cost) seminars/teleconferences a month. SM is an industry and it needs gurus to solidify its place.
    .-= Bob Batchelor´s last blog ..Unrealistic Millennial “Expectations” in the Workplace =-.
  • I can't wait to get off my blackberry and onto my laptop shortly to counter Dr. Batchelor. While he makes a few key points (that we also made yesterday,) assuming we're gurus appealing to 20-somethings is, with all due respect, incredibly shortsighted. Stand by,
  • Hi Sydney, thanks for sharing your notes.

    For me, it is ironic to both talk about sm on an sm platform and, at the same time, be critical of sm on an sm platform. However, the platform enables us to talk across 1,000 miles, so that is a good thing.

    Reading the points you outline, I can't help but hear my consulting-speak, Spidey sense alarm go off. The sm "teachers" telling the rest of us how important their subject is for us and our clients -- reminds one of college, huh?

    For example, point 2 "Let your clients [customers] evangelize and do your PR for you" is as old as business history itself, yet so-called (often self-described) sm "gurus" push this stuff out like they thought it up over sushi the night before. This is business 101, not some great epiphany.

    The sm gurus are doing what PR practitioners have been doing from the start -- attempting to persuade clients that they have special knowledge about some topic that the client should buy. That's fine. What increasingly bothers me is the baseline notion that sm is THE answer.

    Maybe we'll look back in a couple decades and you'll laugh at me b/c I remained a contrarian re sm, but I just don't see it as the starting point for today's PR.

    All these quick hit, appeal to Twentysomethings, methods are debasing the communications process. I mean why write a speech for a client, when one can get away with a 140-character Tweet and post some YouTube videos. The world isn't an MTV video, so I don't think we should advocate or endorse the total transformation into a sound bite culture.
  • Hey Bob, thanks for joining the conversation!

    These comments, coming from you, I take with a great deal of respect, for multiple reasons. The main one being you've actually been in the agency world, unlike some of my other instructors at USF. That being said, I'm honored to have you comment here.

    Though I don't think I will laugh at you in 10 years for being a SM contrarian, I do think you should turn down the skepticism for a minute and think about what SM is and what it has to offer for the industry. Do Chris Brogan and Peter Shankman claim to have created business 101? No, but they do repackage it in a way that is easy (and more appealing) to digest than some stuffy biz prof in the BSN building.

    The point Chris was making about letting your customers evangelize, was not that he was the founder of this concept, but that with SM, it's easier than ever. One-to-many conversation is now many-to-many, and your biggest fans are more easily heard than they were five years ago.

    And I don't think that Chris or Peter will tell you that SM is the answer. I think they'll tell you it's part of the answer. It's yet another way to do what PR practitioners have been doing for years, telling stories. Difference is, now the story can be told to more people, faster, and with more interaction.

    Chris, if you're reading, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions about your messages yesterday.

    Bob, thanks again for jumping in, I get super-pumped when we get to talking!
  • Same here. Thanks for writing this up, Sydney.
    .-= Daniel´s last blog ..New Tricks: Why you should use Technorati, and how to get started there =-.
  • Kristy
    I was unable to attend the call, but thanks for sharing all your thoughts on it! They are all very helpful and insightful.
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